Called to speak: Student leader thrusts campus into dialogue on sexuality, administrators respond

On March 21, 2011 by pointweeklyeditor

(Photo by John Castillo)

By Amy Smith
Editor in Chief

A student leader spoke yesterday to a crowd of more than 200 students and community members about his sexuality, which has ignited a controversial discussion about the lack of dialogue concerning sexual orientation on the campus in recent months.

Some have said that the administration at the school stifles dialogue about gay, lesbian, transgender and bisexual issues. School leaders say they are not opposed to such conversation because of the subject matter, but are concerned that such discussion or forums would be perceived as advocacy.

The Church of the Nazarene does not condone homosexuality.

______________

It was December 16, 2010, and he’d arrived at the train station a little bit early. He bought his ticket and walked about, looking for a nearby bench at which he could sit and write until his boarding time.

He sat down and opened the black leather journal that he carried with him, and wrote this at the top of the page:

“I’m gay.”

There. There it was. On paper, in ink, for the first time in his life were the words that had echoed in his mind all day, and most nights, since the age of 11. He continued on in his entry.

“I turned 21 two days ago. I was supposed to get married in two days, but a month ago I called off my wedding because I decided finally to be honest with myself. I hope that for the first time in my life, journaling might be fruitful since my main concern is not to avoid mention of my sexuality for fear that someone would stumble upon my confession and unravel my reality.

For 10 years I have feared. Today it is nice to be at peace with myself. To look in the mirror and think, ‘You are the beloved, on whom my favor rests. This is good.’”

______________

Todd Clayton, the ASB director of spiritual life and a PLNU senior, ended his yearlong engagement in November after coming out as a gay man. Clayton continues to serve in his student-elected position. This is his second year serving as director of spiritual life.

Clayton will begin his attendance at Princeton Theological Seminary in July. He is a biblical studies major and hopes to one day work in the church, though the specific denomination he will work in is yet to be determined. He was raised in the Nazarene church. Both of his parents are pastors. His mother, Nancy Clayton, serves on PLNU’s board of trustees.

______________

He sat down on the couch in his parents’ hotel room. They had traveled to San Diego for Homecoming weekend, and this was one of the few times that Todd had spent with his father alone. He had told his father that morning that they needed to talk. He had hinted to the insomnia he had been experiencing for the previous several months. He had told him about how he couldn’t hold down food. He had mentioned that he was battling depression. He had hinted that these were far more than pre-wedding jitters.

“Son, what keeps you up at night?” his father asked him in a chair across the room.

He hesitated, debating whether or not to come up with a not-so-believable excuse for the millionth time in his life. But he answered with three simple words.

“Dad, I’m gay.”

His body crumpled onto the couch and he began to sob. His father walked over to the couch on which his son lay, held him and said,

“I love you. I love you. I love you. You’re my son and I love you.”

______________

The Church of the Nazarene holds the position that homosexuality is one means “by which human sexuality is perverted.” The Pastoral Perspectives on homosexuality issued by the church maintains “all forms of sexual intimacy that occur outside the covenant of heterosexual marriage as sinful distortions of the holiness and beauty God intended for it.”

In the same letter from the board of general superintendents of the Church of the Nazarene, it is stated that homosexuality is “real, it tends to begin early, and it is rarely a choice.”

It has been four months since Clayton came out. In that time, conversations have ensued between him and school administrators concerning his role as spiritual director.

President Bob Brower said that school officials never discussed firing Clayton from his position, but instead determined to seek out relationship with him as a student of the university.

“I think the discussion was around, ‘How do we walk closely with a student in this particular moment in time in his life?’” Brower said. “I would expect that there would be a difference in any student along that way. This particular student certainly has a more visible role and responsibilities.”

In December, following his announcement to Mary Paul, vice president for spiritual development, and Mark Carter, university chaplain, parameters were set for the remainder of his term of office.

Paul (who only agreed to speak to The Point Weekly after permission was granted from Clayton) said for Clayton to best finish the year in his role, it would be important for him to have time to reflect on the direction of his life, refrain from pursuing a romantic same-sex relationship and to acknowledge that the chapel venue would not be the place for personal processing of this journey. At the time, Clayton was agreeable to these parameters.

Over the course of the spring semester, however, Clayton has expressed dissatisfaction with the university’s request that he refrain from any type of expression of his sexuality.

“I said, ‘What do you mean by celibate?’” he said. “I said, ‘If I hold a man’s hand, is that celibate?’ And they said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘If I develop a crush, is that celibate?’ And they said, ‘No.’ And so that’s when the real frustration about double standards set in and just the frustration that I never signed anything when I came into office or when I came into school that said I wouldn’t be gay.”

Paul said that the conversations between her and Clayton have become increasingly difficult as they both arrive at different interpretations of the biblical text, but that a commitment to stay in honest communication and relationship remains a top priority for her.

“I told him that whatever his ultimate conclusions were, that the commitment from me was that as he lived his life we were in relationship, and that if he came to an understanding of the biblical text that is different, we stay in relationship,” she said. “And so we do that, but as he has become stronger in his opinion, that’s certainly at times been challenging.”

______________

Controversy surrounding sexuality issues on Christian college campuses are not isolated to PLNU.

In February, the Los Angeles Times reported on a letter that ran in Westmont College’s student newspaper, in which 31 gay and lesbian alumni of the school addressed the “doubt, loneliness and fear” that they felt while in attendance at the school.

More than half of Westmont’s 92 faculty members responded to the letter, seeking forgiveness from the alumni for pain that they may have caused them.

Westmont requires students to sign a code saying that they will abstain from “homosexual practice.” PLNU’s covenant does not specifically address homosexuality, but instead prohibits sexually immoral acts outside of heterosexual marriage.

At Seattle Pacific University, a student-led LGBT group called Haven was told by school administrators in January that it was no longer allowed to use university classrooms to host its meetings. The group has been trying to receive club status from the university since 2006.

The story of the meeting in January prompted an outcry from students, faculty and the online community in the Seattle area, mainly in the form of blogs.

“It was also reported on Change.org, where it got nearly 3,000 signatures asking the administration to change their mind,” said Caleb Richmond, a student leader of Haven, via email. “Groups of alumni quickly organized and nearly 1,000 alumni wrote the school, several of them refusing to support the university in the future if they did not change their mind and grant Haven club status.”

Haven is now a recognized group at the university, with rights to campus classrooms and advertising. It has not received club status at this point and is supervised by a newly created Human Sexuality Advisory Group comprising staff and faculty.

______________

Todd Clayton, ASB director of spiritual life, came out as a gay man in late November 2010. He has ignited dialogue among the campus community on sexuality and the church. (Photo by John Castillo)

Clayton is in the process of writing a charter for a gay-straight alliance to be held at PLNU. He says that the impetus for this decision came after 15 students came out to him this semester.

He says that there is a need for a safe space and dialogue for those on campus to safely name and discuss their sexuality without fear of repercussion or scorn.

“I think it’s really important that this club be institutionalized,” Clayton said. “It needs to not be underground and secretive and embarrassing.”

Whether or not the group will receive club status from the school is a topic of concern for Clayton.

This year’s chair of the board of trustees, Rev. Steve Scott, who is also the Sacramento District Superintendent, said that he “couldn’t be in favor” of an alliance because of its inconsistency with the teachings of the church.

“We haven’t said we’re here to validate everyone’s perspectives on life,” he said. “We’re here to validate Christ’s perspectives on life.”

Brower said that he would not comment on the group because of his lack of knowledge about it.

But Brower did say that one issue the school faces in condoning university-sanctioned dialogue about the topic to occur is the difficulty in distinguishing between “discussions about” and “endorsement and promotion of” an issue.

Paul expressed concern about the confusion that students might feel in deciphering whether Clayton is representing the school or his personal convictions when speaking on the issues.

“What’s difficult for students to see, and what puts me in a difficult place, is when he’s speaking as an individual student and when is he speaking out of his position and role,” she said. “I don’t think students make that distinction.”

The last event held by the university concerning issues of sexuality took place in the 2007-2008 school year. “Sex in the Greek” was held in the school’s Greek amphitheatre and featured various speakers.

Former ASB director of spiritual life Anthony Livolsi was a strong proponent of the Sex in the Greek discussions. He said that in addition to ASB, a board was appointed to oversee the planning of the forums, and that members of the group were from the office of spiritual development. Paul served on this board as well. Forums were held throughout that school year, but haven’t been repeated since.

School officials say that this is partly because there are other issues to consider when thinking about the school’s resources.

“You have to ask yourself, ‘How significant of an issue is it?’” said Scott. “You have to put your resources where your greatest need is.”

Clayton sought advice on the alliance from SPU’s Richmond, who told him to write his charter using language that was not combative toward the stance of the Nazarene church. Clayton is currently refining the charter so as not to espouse a particular viewpoint toward or against homosexuality.

“At that point I had to decide, is my goal to make a ruckus and to say what I want it to say and then blow it up and take it to the press when it doesn’t get passed?” he said. “Or do I really want to create a safe space for students?”

______________

In fall of 2007, university professor Phil Bowles and his wife, PLNU faculty Sharon Bowles, approached university officials seeking permission to host All God’s Children, an LGBT discussion group on campus. They were not granted permission to continue at the school, so they sought a venue elsewhere.

P. Bowles was called into a meeting with the provost and dean at the time, John Hawthorne and David Strawn. He said that he was served papers that stated he could not use university resources, use communication channels, refer to the group at university forums, or invite members of the PLNU campus to the group without already being in conversation with them about the topic.

Brower said that it seems contrary to the position of the school to provide the means for the group to meet because of its perceived advocacy of the practice of homosexuality.

“As the university, who is owned by the board on behalf of the church in the southwest United States, it is inconsistent to provide the resources for, and appearance of sponsorship of, that activity which is considered to be in contrast to the position that the church holds, and therefore that the university holds by not just association, but by relationship,” he said.

S. Bowles negotiated an agreement with San Diego First Church of the Nazarene to meet on Sunday afternoons on the church’s campus. They have been meeting there since. Speakers at the group have included authors, professors, students and pastors.

San Diego First Church pastor, Dr. Dee Kelley, says that he hopes that he sees dialogue around the topic continue in smaller, more intimate settings.

“There are topics that I find in scripture that seem to me to be far more productive to discuss in settings that are not from the pulpit,” Kelley said.

Clayton spoke at All God’s Children yesterday. It was the biggest attendance the group has seen since its inception in 2007.

______________

She sat in the PBC, smiling and patient as she watched me finish my meal. We talked about her childhood, and how’s she’s known that she’s been gay since a young age, She’s had multiple girlfriends throughout high school and college.

She has chosen to remain anonymous in this article for fear of repercussion from her coach. She is an athlete at PLNU. She says that she knows personally of several students at the school who are gay, but that they are too embarrassed to admit it in public.

“I had heard that it is possible to have a relationship with God if you’re gay, but that if you act on it, you should feel ashamed,” she said.

Clayton argues that his relationship with God has never been better since his affirmed his sexuality with himself and the Lord.

“It was in naming myself,” he said. “That God affirmed who I am and affirmed his work.”

1,480 comments on “Called to speak: Student leader thrusts campus into dialogue on sexuality, administrators respond

  1. Doug Fruehling on said:

    I’m hoping for open and honest discussion of human sexuality issues on PLNU’s campus from a Christian perspective.

  2. Blake Nelson on said:

    As a former Director of Spiritual Life, I’m both proud of Todd in his courage and proud of the administration for sticking by him. The issue isn’t going away, and I’m glad Point Loma is engaging it in what appears and healthy and honest way.

  3. I appreciate PLNU’s willingness to discuss such a controversial biblical topic, especially in the culture we live in today. I think it would be naive to think that homosexuality does not exist and take the stance that if Christians ignore it homosexuality will go away. This is not the case with worry, it is not the case with doubt, it is not the case with anger and is not the case with lust. Homosexuality is very real, but as addressed in the bible, it is also a sin. PLNU should openly discuss the issue and lovingly come alongside students that might be struggling with homosexuality. People who come out as gay should not be cast aside yet the sinful condition and thoughts should not be condoned. It is a careful balancing act but one that we as the church are called to perform in Christ.

  4. Cheryl Martin on said:

    ‘Clayton argues that his relationship with God has never been better since he affirmed his sexuality with himself and the Lord.
    “It was in naming myself,” he said. “That God affirmed who I am and affirmed his work.”’
    THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD like KNOWING & SPEAKING THE TRUTH OF WHO YOU ARE to create CONNECTION WITH THE DIVINE. Blessings to you, dear Todd! -an SPU Mom

  5. Amy Caffarella on said:

    I would have to disagree with Blake as to PLNU engaging this issue or forum in a healthy and honest way. The forum was by far one sided and there was no opportunity to refute any of what Todd was bringing to those in attendance.
    For myself, there is much study that has been done to show that a person is definitely “not” born being gay. It isn’t even a sexual issue at first, but a gender identification issue that then leads a person to have a relationship with the same sex that is against all that God intended. Why would God make someone that way when he clearly says in both the old and new testament that those that practice such things (homosexuality)will have no part in the kingdom of heaven.
    We are not judging those who say they are homosexual, but rather they are judged already. I am not writing this to condemn the person who finds himself in this struggle, but to say I care and there is a way out. There is hope.
    That homosexuality is o.k. in God’s eyes is a lie from the enemy of our souls. And the church is embracing this when they should be lovingly helping one find true freedom. For those who are interested, there is help from those who know and have even come out of this lifestyle. See http://www.exodusinternational.org
    I can’t tell you enough how my heart is breaking. I also have a family member who is living this lifestyle, so I have not been untouched by this. I love her dearly. She knows I do, but she also knows that I cannot affirm the path she has chosen.
    Just remember that if I was just pointing a finger, I wouldn’t even bother writing this. But I write because I do care, and I believe that along with my tears over this, the Lord Jesus is also crying.
    With love and grave concern.

  6. Paul Straub on said:

    I am a pastor in the Church of the Nazarene for over 25 years. I also spent many years controlled and driven by pornography both before and after I came to faith in Jesus Christ. Discussion is necessary but we cannot find any text in the Bible where discussion is understood as acceptance of the act whether it is adultery, pride, lying, etc. Yes Jesus loved the young greedy ruler, the woman caught in adultery, the woman with multiple male relationships, and the religious establishment but He always called them to leave their lifestyle and choose to follow Him. For some reason we have erased the simple words of Jesus, ‘pick up your cross daily and follow Me.’ Is it easy? No! Can we do it without people to encourage and help us? No! But if God promises us a new life, a new beginning, and that our old self is gone, then we either believe Him and that He can and wants to help us experience life-transformation or determine He is a liar, a fool, or both. Yes we are to love all people but Biblical love is to seek God’s best for the person we love, not do whatever they want us to do so that what they think is best is accomplished in their life. I know what it is to feel my lifestyle is acceptable and feel angry with those who did not agree. God is able to do greater things that we can imagine.

  7. I’m extremely proud of Todd. Unfortunately he and many other gay students at PLNU are going to be met with a lot of willful ignorance and prejudice disguised as “love” (as evidenced in Amy’s post). I am concerned that she would lead a vulnerable soul to the website of Exodus International, as ex-gay programs such as these have been condemned by the American Psychological Association as well as several other medical groups for being psychologically damaging to same-sex attracted individuals. Thankfully, there is hope and a way out of oppression and self-hatred. Just because God CAN turn you straight doesn’t mean he WANTS to. He loves you just as you are.

    http://www.beyondexgay.com/

  8. Scott Yelvington on said:

    Well, when I came out, point loma was no where near as nice as they are to Todd. When I first got to loma it was an out and out hostile place for gays and we lost one of our own because of the lack of support. It’s nice to see the school has gotten marginally better. And maybe if we’re lucky it’ll keep getting better. But I doubt it. The fact of the matter that every pastor knows all too well is people vote with their feet. You won’t find too many churches who can keep their doors open while being openly racist any more. Churches that are openly sexist still exist but find their niche growing smaller and smaller. The emergent movement is growing faster by the day and generation Y has pretty much decided that it’s ok to be gay… When I left the church and voted with my own two feet I remember feeling the satisfaction at the thought that the nazarene church will probably not have the luxury of feeling remorseful in historical hindsight that they took such a horrible stance against lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgendered people. The nazarenes already face a huge threat from non-denominational churches along with the coming threat of the emergent movement. There will be a day of real accounting for the nazarene church and her condemnation of the “sexually perverse”. and yes. I do believe people will vote with their feet. The enlightenment of a generation as to the reality of our sexual diversity will be the death’s nail on the western nazarene church’s door.

    So Point Loma can change or stay the way they are. It makes little difference to me. If they change then great. If not, “vengeance is mine” and, if you believe in such things, god will kill the church and let another grow in it’s place.

  9. Kyle Suess on said:

    As a current student, I affirm that Todd Clayton is a man who eloquently and faithfully shares the stories of Christianity with the students of Point Loma. Thank you Todd for sharing your story of reconciliation to a loving God with us as the broader PLNU community. I appreciate your vulnerability in doing this, you are supported and loved deeply. We all have much to learn from the words that you have spoken on this day and many others.

    Also, thanks to the Point for covering this situation with concern for the dignity of all parties involved. Thanks to Pastor Dee Kelley and First Church of The Nazarene, San Diego for the open doors to discuss a relevant topic in a safe place. Lastly, the prayer of St. Francis of Assisi wrings true in this situation with immediate implications:

    Where there is hatred, let us sow love;
    where there is injury, pardon;
    where there is discord, union;
    where there is doubt, faith;
    where there is despair, hope;
    where there is darkness, light;
    where there is sadness, joy.
    Grant that we may not so much seek
    to be consoled as to console;
    to be understood as to understand;
    to be loved as to love.
    For it is in giving that we receive;
    it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
    and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen.

    -Peace be with you my friends

  10. Paul Johnson on said:

    I voted with my feet several years ago, walking away from the Nazarene church, and never looked back. Any gay man with any self respect would do likewise.

  11. Jenell on said:

    As a professor at another Christian college (Messiah), I hope for good things at PLNU and will watch how this plays out. Many Christian colleges are facing this challenge (could have _chosen_ to face it long ago, now are being pushed to do so by brave students). Divergent points of view will surely persist, but may civility and respect guide their expression.

    I encourage my students to see sexual identity categories as entirely modern constructions (not biblical). We can do better than judge existing cultural categories – we can make new culture (new understandings of humanity, desire, and sexual holiness) that flow more from our religious tradition than from modern western history. Even then, however, it seems to me that Christian sexual ethics are pretty stringent (everyone fails to meet the law, no? and everyone is fully loved, too.)

    The End of Sexual Identity: Why Sex is too Important to Define Who We Are explains this more fully.

  12. Harold Kameya on said:

    When my daughter came out to us in 1988, I was felt deeply disturbed. I inherently realized that sexual orientation was not a choice.

    However, I was faced with the question: If God created most people as being straight and a few people gay, what did he expect the majority to do? Could there be understanding and acceptance to allow straights and gays learn to live together? Back then, in 1990, the answer that came to me was “Why not?”

    The answer gave comfort to me. Much HAS changed since 1990. I feel that God is at work!

  13. Alan Middleton on said:

    “So Point Loma can change or stay the way they are. It makes little difference to me. If they change then great. If not, “vengeance is mine” and, if you believe in such things, god will kill the church and let another grow in it’s place.” Scott Yelvington

    Boy, what a loaded two sentences Mr. Yelvington has there. If they were physical objects I’d say they’d be pretty hot to the touch (ouch! I burned my finger). I suppose it doesn’t surprise me that anger – anger against a church or anger against the Church in general – is not uncommon by homosexuals. It is one fallacy and hypocritical lie that some homosexuals show because they claim to be all about “peace and love for all” yet, as Mr. Yelvington clearly wrote in his own words, he has a great amount of hate towards the church (or in this case the Nazarene Church or PLNU since it is Nazarene affiliated).

    And how interesting that Mr. Yelvington chooses to quote the “vengeance is mine” scripture (leaving out the source, by the way) as if to say that God is going to somehow and for some reason punish those who oppose the homosexual lifestyle. So now this is anger not only against the church but anger against those who simply do not believe or do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle. See how this anger grows and grows?

    Furthermore, Mr. Yelvington, earlier on, alludes to the fact that churches who oppose homosexuality are “sexist.” He says: “Churches that are openly sexist still exist but find their niche growing smaller and smaller. “ I believe what Mr. Yelvington meant, though the anger that has riddled his heart all these years has clouded his judgment and essay writing-skills, is that conservative pro-heterosexual churches are somehow losing members who are flocking in great numbers to churches that are pro-homosexual; however, Mr. Yelvington is yet to state his source for this claim that churches that are “sexist” are getting smaller and smaller.

    Oh and in regards to “MC”’s comment that homosexuality is a “controversial biblical topic,” s/he is correct. However, the Bible (with a capital “B” I must remind you) is quite clear about how homosexuality is a sin and is not to be practiced. But oh I know my homosexual-loving friends will say that the Bible is about love and what not. Yes, the Bible is about love but it is also very clearly states that male-male relationships (which includes female-female relationships) is quite wrong. “ “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” (Leviticus 18:22, NIV).

    Anger in general is not good, anger against a specific church gets one nowhere, and claiming that the Bible defends homosexuality is a lie.

  14. Caitlyn Burford on said:

    I find it absolutely hilarious that all of the “anti-gay” biblical passages everyone quotes are from Leviticus. Come on, dudes. IT’S LEVITICUS! The same one that says I can’t touch anything if I’m on my period (Lev.15:19- 24) , and I can possess slaves as long as they are from “neighboring nations” which I guess ok’s Canadians (Lev. 25:44), and can’t each shellfish (Lev. 11:10).

    Oh my goodness, what if I was gay AND ate shellfish? Would the “abominations” cancel each other out? I feel an experiment coming on.

    I also really enjoy a good polyester/cotton blend, which sends me straight to hell in Lev.24:10-16.

    Amy, although I didn’t get the chance to attend, you say that the forum was one-sided. I believe that whole-heartedly. But keep in mind that Todd and other gay individuals have been fed the other side for decades. They have been told that homosexuality is wrong and condemned. If there is any debate over which side of the argument needs to be more unbiased, it is most certainly the overwhelming opinion that homosexuality is condemned in the church.

    Alan, I think anger is a necessary and productive aspect of all struggles for civil rights. I cannot speak to Scott’s anger one way or another, but the struggle for women’s liberation, race equality, and now homosexual rights could not be productive without anger. The church is not perfect, but a dynamic movement of the people of God. When the church falls out of that, it needs to be critiqued in anger. We were angry at the church for the crusades. I would have been angry at the church for all of the torture devices they used in the Spanish Inquisition. I am angry at the church for the systematic murder of women who used to be called “witches”. I am angry at the Church now, for the way that many people have completely avoided the message of an unconditional love and turned it into a firy-brimstone judgment tool for ridiculing and oppressing God’s beloved, homosexual or not.

    Todd, I love you. Point Loma Nazarene, I am proud of the steps you have taken so far. Please continue to do so. I beg you to please approve a GLBTQ club on campus. I would support it and join in a heartbeat.

  15. Alan Middleton on said:

    Miss Burford,

    Because you feel that those of us who oppose homosexuality ONLY gather verses from Leviticus, allow me to add to my verse that I shared above from various other books of the Bible.

    Deuteronomy 23:17: “There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.”

    Romans 1:26-27: “For this cause God gave them up until vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another ; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.”

    I Corinthians 6:9-10: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, no effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, no extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Matthew 19:4-5: “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them in the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?”

    “ …The struggle for women’s liberation, race equality, and now homosexual rights could not be productive without anger.” Caitlyn Burford

    Really, Miss Burford, you cannot be serious. Anger gets man nowhere; nothing good comes from anger. In fact, the Bible in various books besides Leviticus, speaks very negatively about this topic of anger:

    “ Do not make friends with a hot-tempered person, do not associate with one easily angered.” Proverbs 22:24

    “Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools.” Ecclesiastes 7:9

    “But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” Romans 2:8

    “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres” I Corinthians 13:4-6

    “In your anger do not sin…” Ephesians 4:26

    “My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.” James 1:19-20

    Miss Burford, anger is not productive but quite contrary. As James says above, we should be everything but angry “…because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.”

  16. Lisa Hathaway on said:

    Yes, Todd, we are all loved by the Lord, but He is a holy God who cannot and will not condone our sin! That is why Jesus died on the cross, so that we may be freed from the slavery of sin, becoming slaves of righteousness. In case you haven’t read your Bible, homosexuality is a sin (reiterated in the New Testament under “sexual immorality”). Perhaps you are tempted toward this sin, but you must resist. This is nothing more than a test of your heart and your obedience to God’s Word, Todd. For you to even think that the Lord’s favor would be on you, when you are choosing willful sin is a delusion. And what about your pride, Todd? In the article you say, “This is good.” Really? I mean, REALLY???!!! I don’t think so. May the Lord get ahold of your heart before he gives you over totally to a reprobate mind. You need to step down from your position and really ponder whether you are ready to be counted worthy of the calling to be a Christian. For right now, you are doing nothing but shaming the cross.

    Staying firm in His grip,
    Lisa Hathaway

  17. Anthony Livolsi on said:

    Arguments against same-sex affectivity turn on a fundamentalist deployment of two or three scriptural texts. Those of us who are not fundamentalists are not obliged to grant credence to these readings; in fact, our own understandings of revelation forbid it.

    Conservatives circle their wagons around Romans, 1 Corinthians, and Leviticus. This is fine, but not especially interesting or helpful. Which is to say: progressives are well aware of the positions these texts present and have spent the better part of thirty years addressing them.

    As best I can tell, mainstream biblical scholars, theologians and Christian ethicists – with two noteworthy exceptions (Richard Hays and Oliver O’Donovan, though both have of late softened their stances under pressure, the first from Dale Martin and the second from Gene Rogers) – have quite nearly approached a consensus on this issue. That is, Christianity’s foremost thinkers agree that arguments against same-sex affectivity are no longer viable.

    Obviously, evangelicals disagree. Thankfully, though, Christianity does not reduce down to conservative evangelicalism alone. If the Church of the Nazarene will not welcome LGBTQ persons into the full life and ministry of the church, that’s tragic, but to be expected: other, more open traditions, will gladly show hospitality in their stead.

    Like Paul above, I also left the Church of the Nazarene after a rocky ‘coming-out’ of my own a few years back. I will be ordained within the United Church of Christ within the year and could not be happier.

    Our denomination has been an unambiguous cheerer of civil rights and at the forefront of more social justice movements than I can name. We value intellectual liveliness, generosity of spirit, and freedom of conscience, and above all, ardent love of God, neighbor, and stranger.

    The Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, the UCC, and (pending a final vote count that looks more and more promising by the day!) the Presbyterian Church USA all welcome and ordain LGBTQ persons.

    Serious Christians, studying the same scriptures, come to different conclusions on the issue. For those who feel stifled and harmed by the Church of the Nazarene’s stance, know that you need never tolerate spiritual abuse. We in the UCC or PC-USA or wherever, would be honored for you to join us in worship.

  18. Sondra Kounter on said:

    The Church of the Nazarene has a very clear, detailed, compassionate, biblical stance on this issue. It is the same position on this issue they have always held. The university is called Point Loma NAZARENE university. Anyone who identifies him or herself as gay is not obligated to attend Point Loma NAZARENE university. This complaining is like going to Europe and getting offended when people insist that you drive on the left side of the road.

  19. Ben Weiland on said:

    This is such a sensitive issue, and one that I don’t have much experience with or know much about. I don’t know if I can express my beliefs without making someone upset, so I would like to say that it is definitely not my intention. So please be gracious with me.

    My question is, where does the idea that same-sex affectivity is not a sin come from? Is it a conclusion from the Bible? or is it something that feels right within ourselves? or is it something that progressive society agrees upon? Where does our morality as whole come from?

    The Bible teaches that apart from Jesus, all of us are unrighteous people. My assumption is that if we primarily follow our personal moral standards, they are likely to be off most of the time. I don’t think entire societies or movements are a satisfactory gauge for morality either. There are many extreme examples of cultures practicing moral standards that seem horrific to us now. I wouldn’t be surprised if our culture will be critiqued the same way on day.

    I think as followers of Christ, morality is a matter of believing that the Bible can be trusted completely, and our own hearts can’t always be trusted. We need to deeply examine ourselves. Does our own morality shape the way we view the Bible or does the Bible shape us?

    If this is true:

    Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    then I would not inherit the kingdom of God, based on at least 6 of these points. But my joy is in this:

    And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  20. Logan Johnson on said:

    Before the wisdom of Anthony’s comment gets lost in personal vendettas, I think all LGBT should take the words from one of your own. Just leave the Nazarene church and apply yourselves to another denomination or a non-denominational church. He seems to be doing very well since he made this move.

    We Nazarenes are conservative. There doesn’t need to be a discussion about homosexuality. The Nazarene denomination had a discussion and chose one side of the fence. Any further discussion would only be to overturn this decision because the rest of us agree with that decision.

    My advice to the everyday LGBT, to go alongside Anthony’s words, would be to do a little more research before you choose an institution that doesn’t condone your lifestyle. You don’t go into an ice cream shop and get offended/write charters/create groups/cry when they don’t have an 8 oz. steak. You all are very smart people if you’re getting into college so read a little bit about the place you’re going to avoid not getting a steak. It’s not that hard. I read the Bible, formulated my interpretations about its contents, and chose to be a Nazarene. It was the smartest choice for me because our beliefs aligned. I suggest you all do the same.

    If choosing to be a Nazarene means I’m not a serious Christian, and is a tragic choice, then I’m ok with it. I like my Leviticus, 1 Corinthians, and Romans along with the rest of the Bible. For most of us it isn’t about proving homosexuality as wrong or right, but that for us the Bible says it’s wrong and we are Nazarenes and we don’t excuse away the scriptures that tell us so. If you want to be a Nazarene then drop the LGBT. If not then follow Anthony.

  21. plnu student on said:

    It is truly sad to see future pastors such as Anthony Livolsi leave their church and denomination in order to find one that is accepting of their own truth, rather than the Truth. Like Clayton plans to be, Livolsi is a Princeton Theological student. As the Word says, “They exchanged the Truth of God for a lie.”
    God “affirmed” you sexuality? He positively agreed with you? Given God’s attribute of immutability, I don’t see how He suddently “affirms” sin.
    It is much easier to qualify than repent. That is the reason Clayton is currently requesting to start a GLBT “club” (even though it is still ‘against covenant’ to have a square dance club).
    It is worth noting that PLNU has kept Clayton in his position of leadership as the Director of Spiritual Development, a position once held by Livolsi.
    Social liberals such as Livolsi live their lives based on a Book they continually claim as false. This is consistent with the Bible department as well as the special chapel guests such as Brian McLaren and Rob Bell. People like Scott (aka Ratio the Statistic) can claim Biblical support for homosexuality (and abortion as he has in the past) but Truth is still Truth. The EC denies Truth and that is why Scott and Anthony find it so attractive. Whatever you want to be true…is! The postmodernism EC has one goal of destruction of Truth. This is ultimately a vain attempt to try and eliminate morality and guilt from human life. (Like Freud said, guilt is a tyrant, right?) You can say that God is love until you are blue in the face, but there is also judgment and Truth, something the EC wants to ignore.

  22. Danielle Cervantes Stephens on said:

    Amy: You should be proud of your story — balanced, timely, well written and sensitive. Brava!

    Todd: I commend your courage! You go, bro!

  23. Jason Johnson on said:

    Todd: As ASB leader of spiritual development you must understand the influence of your position. It is clear that you are not inline with the values of the university that elected you to this office. I would request that you resign immediately. There is to much biblical truth identifying Homosexuality as sin. If you are struggling with this sin then you can not effectively serve the student body as the ASB spiritual Leader. Do the right thing and step down.

  24. Alan Middleton on said:

    Mr. Livolsi,

    This scripture is for you. It is not found in Leviticus, Romans, or 1 Corinthians.

    Matthew 19:4-5: “And he answered and said utno them, Have eye not read, that he which made them in the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?”

    If you wish to continue your pro-homosexual rant, please note the Bible does NOT defend this practice anywhere. I actually challenge you to show me where, word for word, the Bible praises or requests for same-sex relationships or marriages.

    Thank you.

  25. I am proud to be a student of Point Loma Nazarene University. I am also proud to be a gay man.

    However, I am not proud of the way people deal with this issue. It’s not a choice, and it’s not something we can change. Would those of you opposed to our “sin” rather we lived alone throughout our lives?

    Adam himself sought companionship. Mankind is not intended to live alone.

    The admiration I have for Todd is immeasurable. Congratulations for your self assurance, Todd.

  26. Nathan Maddix on said:

    Logan–I appreciate that analogy, as it is clear that you went to college so that you could work in an ice cream shop.
    Point Loma Nazarene University is a liberal Nazarene school. There are only 20% Christians, and to the extent that homosexuality is one of the most controversial aspects in the interpretation of scripture, there is not a universal position on homosexuality. That being said, you have defined Christianity in a way that is ignorant of your friends’, brother’s, and sister’s real struggles–and you should be ashamed.
    The lampoon as to your current place of work was so that you may feel the ostracism you are invoking upon your friend Todd.

  27. Wow, the Church may have solved world hunger if we dedicated as much focus as we do to a person’s sexual orientation. In the time it has taken you to comment on this, you probably could have gone onto Kiva (http://www.kiva.org/), made a micro loan, and helped another one of God’s children out.

  28. When I was very young, about a 7 year old boy, I was sexually molested on multiple occasions by a janitorial assistant at my Nazarene church. Unless you have lived with something like that in your past, or studied the varied impacts in depth, it is fairly impossible to convey or understand the lasting effects of the event itself, and subsequent mental and physical traumas it can have.

    Satan used this event to awaken my sexuality early, and build an extremely strong foundation of lust thru imagination and pornography [which seemed to just present itself thru friends, magazine clippings in bushes by my elementary school, and other opportunities which a pre-adolescent boy, though raised in the church with (I feel) great parents, found impossible to ignore. Though I had accepted Christ as my savior when I was 6, Satan had a very strong hold on me and manipulated me for decades thru my sinful nature with the tool of lust.

    By some arguments presented in the comments I have read following this article, because God made me a certain way and/or allowed the molestation to occur which inarguably had a direct impact on, if not largely or outright constructed my view of women, sexuality, interpersonal relationships with the opposite sex, and lastingly creating an early/pre-disposition to damaging pornography with which I struggle today (the internet is the single most powerful tool Satan has commandeered to date), one might come to the conclusion that it is really not my fault; that thinking certain thoughts, or viewing certain pictures is just a byproduct of who I am, so it can’t be bad.
    Or at least, I get a free pass on judgment day because God made [or allowed] me to be this way.
    In any case, such thoughts and actions are not uncommon among fallen and depraved humanity, so it is unthinkable that God would hold me accountable to such a high standard amidst so many internal and external obstacles.
    And, if unable to justify my actions to myself in isolation, a comparative to the norm within our culture would certainly justify me, and the church, to reconsider our stance on pornography, adultery, and premarital sex.

    The above is a demonic lie of Satan.

    I submit to you the following statement, supported by every verse in Scripture: I serve a God, one who demands His people be holy, as He is holy. He didn’t caveat that demand with exceptions for some people He may have made a certain way, or been thru trauma, etc. His Word is His Word; reinterpreting it to suit the cultural tolerance of the day is a serious sin. My God is unchanging, and His call to holiness does not vary or come with degrees of latitude owing to personal circumstance or events.
    The wages of sin is death. Sin is not defined or redefined by “what that verse means to me”.
    I’m sure there will be plenty of people in heaven who never memorized the Apostles Creed, the Nazarene Articles of Faith, or can convey the doctrine of the Trinity.
    Repentance is 100% necessary to Salvation. There will be none in heaven who did not repent (turn 180 degrees) from their sin.
    Todd, I love you, I love your family. I pray that you will allow God to teach you why He made you the way He did. Marriage may not be what He has for you. You obviously have courage to tell your story. Have the courage to confess it as sin. He is faithful and just to forgive, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness; even the stuff society tells us is ok.
    Wait another 15-20 years…just think what society will be telling us is ok then.

  29. Cody Iddings on said:

    What is happening here is deeply saddening me.

    At my time at Point Loma, and now looking back, I have seen my kids fall away from the “faith” because of either the experience they had at Loma or doctrine they were taught, forced either in Theology classes or Chapel sessions. This is true because many of the teachers and faculty are Liberal minded and believe me, there were not a lot of leaders that I met that were Bible-believing, Evangelical Christians. You have to search far and wide to meet some that believed in “Reformed Theology.” There at least could be some sort of balance, yes?

    So when the students are being taught that the Bible is not inerrant, where then does the Truth lie? Old ideas become tradition and new ideas are held tight.
    Students then go and live their “new” life without any foundation of Truth and God’s Word then indeed they will drift away (Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. -Hebrews 2:1 ESV).

    The school is torn because they are supported by the Nazarene Church, who is unsupportive of Homosexual Pastors – but there are now students trying to change the school’s view? Why? Because they are taught this way as I stated above.

    The way that this needs to be changed is not to blame the students, but to look at the faculty and leaders and see what is being taught. When Christ, and Him revealed, is at the focus of the teaching I think everyone will see more students encouraging Gospel-centered Community, love, and discipleship that so many faculty, Professors, students, and parents want at a Christian University.

  30. Student on said:

    Mr. Maddix,

    I quite appreciate how you launch straight into pejoratives and condescending dialog from the get go. As I always say, this is exactly what any conversation needs.

    If anyone wants to read what the Board of General Superintendents have actually said on the subject of homosexuality: http://www.nazarene.org/files/docs/Perspectives_Homosexuality.pdf

    The Nazarene Church does condemn homosexual behavior, this is true, not orientation. But it also adds: “The church should not be a place of ridicule and
    condemnation, but a place of love, of grace, and of
    redemption. as pastors, we must walk the fine line
    between blanket condemnation of homosexuality and
    accepting/condoning homosexual behavior”

    Please be careful in hastily painted pictures of the Nazarene Church, of different beliefs, conflicting notions. They often fail to do justice in any way shape or form.

    And MC, Adam may have sought companionship. But Paul didn’t.

    More importantly: Jesus didn’t. The only perfect act we can point to is the Cross. And that is also perhaps the loneliest moment in all of human history.

  31. PLNU Alumni on said:

    Sondra, have you been to Europe? Only the Brittish drive on the left side of the road. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_driving_on_the_left_or_right.svg

    As an Alumni of PLNU and a former Philosophy/Theology major I am frustrated with the scapegoating of The School of Theology and Christian Ministry. I have been deeply shaped and influenced by many of the professors who still teach there and I know from experience that these educators are disciples who love Jesus.

    I, like many freshmen, came to PLNU with a version of Nazarenedom (is that a word?) that had more to do with Christian Talk Radio (which skews fundamentalist/reformed/calvinist) than it did with the rich tradition of John Wesley and Phineas Bresee. Some students, when faced with a different perspective than the fundamentalist one they grew up with, just give up and leave the faith. They become fundamentalist atheists in a sense. If you want an example of this check out biblical scholar Bart Ehrman. Others just drill down deeper in their fundamentalism. Still other of us, myself included, embraced a vibrantly evangelical expression of our faith in Jesus Christ that is not fundamentalist, and most of all, is not driven by fear.

    For the people who are angry that a conversation about gays in the church is happening at PLNU and are turning on the School of Theology to scapegoat someone, it reveals several things about you. 1. You are insecure about your own Theology and cannot stomach a conversation with people who might disagree, so rather than enter a conversation with humility you resort to using power and fear to protect and wall off a “safe” place for your views to never come in contact with an “outside threat.” 2. You don’t understand education. You think that a Christian Liberal arts education is just about rubber stamping the point of view you came into college with as a freshmen, never challenging you to understand others, and that it should just get down to the business of making you a more attractive commodity to the American workforce.

    To the parents who are freaking out and are being told by their pastors that PLNU’s School of Theology is ruining their kids faith… your pastors are wrong. If your kid’s faith was built on never encountering different points of view, then it wasn’t genuine faith in the first place. If your kid can’t learn how to have a discussion about gays in the church (no matter what their conclusion) in an environment like PLNU, how are they going to after college? If you think that because the School of Theology doesn’t teach a fundamentalist-literalist approach to scripture that they’re eroding your kid’s respect for the Bible, it’s just not true. The Church of the Nazarene doesn’t take a fundamentalist-literalist approach to scripture and yet we allow room for those who do to still be a part of our denomination. We just don’t allow them to tell everyone else that they have to be fundamentalists to be Nazarene.

    The School of Theology is full of Christians who care about the faith of the students at PLNU, who care about education and challenging those same students to deepen and better understand their faith, to expose them to different (even Wesleyan!) ideas that might be different than what we all learned in Sunday school. As an alumni I’m proud of them and the work they’re doing and I look forward to how they participate in this conversation in a way that challenges to deeper understanding of scripture and God’s heart of love.

  32. Alan Middleton on said:

    “…Homosexuality is one of the most controversial aspects in the interpretation of scripture, there is not a universal position on homosexuality.” Nathan Maddix

    While the first part is true about what Mr. Maddix stated above, the second part to his statement is completely absurd. Homosexuality is in deed a controversial topic; however, there is no “interpretation of scripture” about it as NO scripture defends homosexual acts. Furthermore, there really IS a universal position on homosexuality and that all churches that follow Biblical scriptures oppose the homosexual lifestyle as a walk of life. Sure, love the sinner and hate the sin exits but that doesn’t mean that the church has to agree with homosexuality. I’m stating that the true Church follows the Bible and no where in the Bible is the act of homosexuality regarded as being “okay” in the eyes of God.

    I am yet to read of or have presented to me any scriptures which not only defend the practice of, speak positively about, or state specifically that a union between two men or two women is scripturally approved, healthy, or what God intended. Everything I read is quite contrary.

    One last thing, Mr. Maddix’s personal attack on Logan Johnson is quite immature and pathetic, really. I was under the impression that those who wished to “comment” on the above article would do so in a respectable and grown-up manner. While I know we all are not in agreement, it is best to focus on the topic and not result to personal attacks.

  33. Sondra on said:

    PLNU Alumni…England is in Europe, but if it helps you to understand the analogy better, here you go: This complaining is like going to England and getting offended when people insist that you drive on the left side of the road.

  34. Sondra on said:

    Cody, I completely agree with you. As parents, we want our children to be exposed to differing views on a variety of topics, including Christianity and other religions, but we expect that biblical truth will ultimately be brought to the fore to shine a light on the inadequacy and inaccuracy of other ideas. We do not save, scrape and sacrifice to send our kids to a Nazarene university only to have the faith in which we have so diligently and carefully instructed them shattered, as we have witnessed happen time and time again to families and friends in our own church.

  35. Anonymous on said:

    Todd Clayton, I am a Christian and I stand with you 100%. You are a good person and you have done a lot for this University. Your sexual orientation is between you and God. I’m not the judge and God did not create me to be a judge. I don’t pretend to know your heart, and I don’t pretend to know everything about God and the purpose he has for your life. I don’t pretend to know everything about the Bible. I respect you as a fellow human being and my brother in Christ. Keep striving to improve the lives of others, keep discussing and questioning your faith, and pray. My prayer for you is that God meets you, and all of us in this time of questioning and discussion.

  36. Jay Olsen on said:

    An open and honest dialogue on this subject is nice, but this is still a Nazarene university and as such should continue to support the beliefs of the Nazarene Church. I believe that the university should continue to reach out to Todd and should love him through this ordeal and throughout the rest of his time at PLNU. It is clear through some of his statements and his intentions surrounding helping write a charter for a gay-straight alliance at PLNU, as well as his very public statements regarding his sexuality, that the situation demands that he either resign his very visible position of ministry at PLNU or that the university ask him to leave that position. His statements in the article don’t sound like a person who is willing not only to stay celibate, but to also refrain from promoting or condoning the gay lifestyle. While it sounds to me like Todd had already “outed” himself back in November, it is unfortunate that he chose to make such an outward, public announcement or statement, causing a great deal of controversy at a university where the official position on this matter seems to be quite clear.

  37. Logan Johnson on said:

    Nathan, college was the ice cream shop in that analogy. The type of attendees at the school, if in fact they are only 20% Nazarene, makes no difference on the topic of homosexuality because the institution is a Nazarene one. Being Nazarene it upholds Nazarene beliefs and ideals.

    I’m not here to discuss whether homosexuality is right or wrong, but the Nazarene denomination has taken a stance on it. It is because of this stance that so many are asking this leader to 1) step down or 2) stop promoting his lifestyle from a Nazarene leadership position. He should not feel ostracized, but instead feel responsible and do one of the previous.

    He is in violation of what he has agreed to uphold when he took the position of Spiritual Life. The administration in Spiritual Development asked him to refrain from acting on his homosexuality and remain celibate. His response was in opposition in his attendance of All God’s Children last Sunday. The issue here isn’t whether homosexuality is right or wrong, but that it is wrong in a Nazarene setting and Todd is in direct violation of that as a leader in a Nazarene institution.

    As long as people realize that homosexuality is wrong in a Nazarene stance than discussion wouldn’t be a problem, but that hasn’t been true in years past and currently in All God’s Children.

  38. Matt Cromwell on said:

    I love and appreciate Todd Clayton! As a PLNU alumn, and one who helped organize conversations around these kinds of subjects, I am specifically proud of Todd for not only being courageous, but going above and beyond to make this very vulnerable time in his life become a learning experience for the whole campus. How many heterosexuals would like their sexual preferences to become the subject of school-wide discussion to be approved or disapproved of? Peace and blessings to you, Todd, in Christ Jesus YOUR Lord!

  39. Joshua Romero on said:

    As an openly gay alumnus of Point Loma and new friend of Todd’s, I commend his courage. The man has an unspeakable maturity about his faith and what it means to graciously seek dialogue on this issue. He’s in my thoughts and prayers as he continues this journey of faith and confonts challenges from the church and campus community he so earnestly loves and has dedicated himself to.

  40. Marty Alan Michelson on said:

    I am an Elder in the Church of the Nazarene, and a Professor at Southern Nazarene University.

    I did not know that the Church of the Nazarene had the 15 page document noted in these comments by the anonymous student. Thanks for sharing!

  41. Thomas Baird on said:

    Like many others, I commend Todd’s courage. As a Point Loma alum, I am pleased to see this conversation taking place, and I hope that more people stand by Todd as he finishes his studies at Point Loma.

    PLNU represents an entire denomination, and is thus obligated to uphold church doctrine. Many have chosen to allude to this in their comments. I understand this, but I think that Anthony Livolsi addresses it well in his comment above. The church stretches beyond PLNU. Point Loma students, and all Christians, should not have to tolerate spiritual abuse. There are Christians that value and love LGBT individuals, both in and outside of the Nazarene Church. I attended a Seminary that invited MORE than mere dialogue, and I am grateful for that experience. As Anthony said, “Serious Christians, studying the same scriptures, come to different conclusions on the issue.” I would hate for LGBT Christians to miss out on participating in a Christian community that truly valued them. I encourage anyone that feels stifled by their denomination to find a church that welcomes them. And I encourage PLNU to continue to grow. I love this University, and this denomination. LGBT individuals should not have to leave this place in order to feel valued.

    There are commenters here that approve of “dialogue,” but want nothing more. I notice this alarming trend among my Christian friends and family with fundamentalist leanings (people whom I deeply love), and it makes me nervous. I would almost prefer that they not want dialogue at all! I see individuals empowered by their perceived concessions, stating that they have been willing to be “open to the idea,” but now demand that the other side give a little. In this case, the other side has rarely received until now. The LGBT community has hardly been given a voice at Point Loma until recently, and now they’re treated as though they have too much of one. While some see generosity, I see openly-gay Christians being teased with the chance of acceptance. I understand that it looks like progress, but I want to see more before I call it that.

  42. I am an alumni of PLNU and a member of San Diego First Church.

    I understand that the Nazarene church has made its stance on the issue of homosexuality. But how do you know it’s not wrong?

    It is my understanding that the Church of the Nazarene believes that scriptures are inerrant only on matters of salvation, not on matters pertaining to science and history.

    We tend to think of homosexuality as a moral issue. But really? I did not make a moral choice to become heterosexual anymore than Todd made a moral choice about his sexuality. It is a scientific issue that Biblical writers thousands of years ago couldn’t have understood. Despite Amy C.’s comment above, there is mounting scientific evidence that this is an issue of biology (I challenge you to read the empirical research provided in medical journals as opposed to the agenda driven literature put out by fundamentalists).

    Many of you sound so sure about your position. When I was at Point Loma they taught me that the pursuit of truth was a life long journey. Simply because the church has already decided on the issue doesn’t mean there isn’t room for dissent. What if Christians had never questioned the Church’s previous certainty that the earth was flat, that slavery was permissible, that interracial marriage was wrong, that women couldn’t be ministers?

    Speaking of that, our denomination has chosen not to take literally the verses in the Bible that forbid women from taking leadership roles and even from talking in church, right? So why are we holding so tight to a literal interpretation of a few verses on homosexuality?

    I hope that the Nazarene Church (a church so progressive in it’s affirmation of women) will change it’s stance on this issue. It’s okay to have been wrong.

    Hats off to you Todd Clayton. I can only hope that someday my children are as brave as you. And that rather than fleeing an institution that is flawed, they stick in there and fight for change. Don’t listen to Logan, this church needs you.

  43. PLNU Alumnus on said:

    I don’t fault Todd Clayton for his boldness, I fault the administration of the university for their lack of boldness. It is this lack of boldness that has led the university to this day. Administrators of the university, you have been placed in your role by God to lead. Be bold and lead!

  44. anonymous on said:

    I have known Todd since he was a young child and pray for him what I pray for my own children–a heart that follows hard after God. In doing so, I also pray that he seeks to stay pure of heart and body until he finds that person that he pledges his life to until “death do us part.” What has been absent in this entire conversation is the difficulty for people that are homosexual in finding people that have chosen to stay pure until marriage. (or civil union) We are so quick to condemn promiscuity in a gay lifestyle while essentially overlooking it in the heterosexual lifestyle. I have been on a journey of “working out my faith” for about 40 years now. I am amazed at how many commenting are so quick to condemn an honest seeker who is not claiming to be perfect. The harshest judgement that Jesus EVER had was for the religious “right.” I stand with Todd’s father–loving and praying.

  45. donna richey-suttles on said:

    Dear Todd,
    I do not know you, but I am very touched by your coming out story.

    Through the years I have seen the price that many gay people have paid by coming out, some have committed suicide, some have been murdered, some have been abandoned by family, but many have spoken of being at peace for the first time in their lives.

    May you have soul-guided wisom in your decisions in these days. May you be instrumental in giving hope, to the many other students in your remaining time at PLNU and at Princeton, who are struggling with the price of “becoming real”.
    God bless you. Donna Richey-Suttles

  46. Ron Raphoon on said:

    There is no way I could bring myself to read all of these comments, I just don’t have the time or the desire, so if you got this far down the list and you are still reading, I’m sorry if this is repetitive.

    There are plenty of universities in the state of California where homosexuality is accepted and even some place where it is embraced and celebrated. If you have known since 11 that you were gay, why would you contemplate going to a school where you know that one of the things you are going to use to define yourself is not accepted. It is called Point Loma NAZARENE University. I’m not the smartest person in the world but I know that NAZARENE means that we don’t approve of a gay lifestyle. I don’t care who is gay or why they are gay and I don’t want to be involved in their lifestyle therefore I stay away from places that are clearly gay focused. It seems that a gay person should also stay away from a place that is clearly not supportive of gays.

    That being said, I don’t remember anything being signed when I went to Point Loma that asked if I was gay or that suggested it wasn’t accepted. On the other hand I do remember signing a covenant that gave certain guidelines that generally followed the belief of the Nazarene church and while I was never an angel by any means and probably frequently bent the rules a bit, it was typically away from the school and kept separate from the university. I never asked the school to accept any of the areas that I failed to meet the standards asked of me and I also never publicized the things I did that were contrary to the requests put upon me by the covenant.

    You have to play by the rules in order to stay in the game. Everybody fails to live up to the standards put on them by the world, society, family, and church, but it seems that it would be easier to simply avoid the places that you know you wont be accepted or at least keep those things private.

  47. Alan Middleton on said:

    I am amazed at the fact various genderless and nameless individuals feel compelled to write a few sentences, yet withhold their name and/or webpage verifying their identity.

    I suppose it is easier to hide behind a computer monitor using an anonymous name and state whatever is on your mind without putting any thought into it, rather then stating your real name.

    It’s okay. I don’t blame those who wish to be anonymous. If I wasn’t 100% sure about what I wrote I’d use an anonymous name as well.

    Good job, folks.

  48. Ron Zimmer on said:

    The church goes into crisis mode when emotion and empathy precede strong Biblical hermeneutics. The rights of homosexuals should certainly be open topics of conversation within our general society, but that doesn’t mandate private institutions should start with core suppositions within its own construct.

    The Bible only means what the original author meant to say to the original audience. Scripture must inform me about my current culture, not the other way around. We should be struggling with the question of how we respond to our changing culture, not struggling with how our culture changes our basic Biblical values. The fact that others might take a different view of scripture is not a valid argument in changing the nature conversation.

    Perhaps the problem comes when the church does not start these conversations. They are started by well-intentioned people with a philosophy or lifestyle that needs affirming.

    The Christian community must love all who come with grace and honor for all of us are in need of such mercy. That does not mean that the church should avoid Biblically informed stands that may become offensive or abrasive.

    PLNU must seek to pour grace forward into changing world without normalizing behavior incongruent with scripture. That has not and never will be popular. Clayton and the Point Weekly seem to have maneuvered Point Loma in a defensive posture with no gracious way forward.

  49. Sarah on said:

    When did the true lesson get complicated? Love. This world is supposed to be centered around love. How on earth we have managed to complicate such a simple subject is beyond me. From my understanding, my only role is to love you. All of you. The rest is up to…well, whom/whatever else exists.

  50. Alan Middleton on said:

    This idea that PLNU should discuss the topic of homosexuality because it is a prevalent topic in society is not relevant. As it was stated above (though I can’t remember who stated it) attending PLNU is a choice and one agrees to abide by the student handbook that PLNU set in place.

    Every PLNU alumni will recall, chapel was a mandatory order. Each student, depending on year in college among other factors, was required to attend “x” amount of chapels. I, along with other students, hated chapel for the fact it felt like church. I went from attending church services once per week prior to coming to PLNU to 2-3 times per week in order to meet my chapel requirement. My point is this: I knew about the chapels and I still chose to attend. Though I didn’t like the fact I had to attend so many chapels was beside the point. The point is I chose to attend PLNU.

    If one does not like the fact that PLNU does not have an LGBT chapter or openly and freely accept the homosexual lifestyle, then they should opt out of PLNU and choose a college that will best suit their needs.

    It’s simple really: play by the rules when you are in attendance and upon graduation, as an educated and “free” adult one is then allowed the freedom to choose or change their sexual identity.

    God made Adam and Eve. God created sex for the purpose of pro-creation. If God was really sympathetic towards the homosexual lifestyle we would see evidence in the Bible. But nowhere in the Bible, not one verse, is pro-homosexual nor does Jesus speak on behalf of homosexual unions. Don’t believe me? Read the Bible for yourself. Prove me wrong. I dare you.

    This pro-homosexual nonsense and political mumbo-jumbo about how PLNU needs an LGBT chapter is nonsense.

  51. Sherene Sickler Sasser on said:

    I am an alum of PLNU. Some of the best years of my life were spent there. Many of my friends from PLNU are gay.

    I, too, have grappled with this issue wondering if people can really be born gay and how that might work out if they’re also a Christian. Since I am not gay, I have no way to truly understand their struggle. However, I can relate in the sense of what JCL brought up: women in church leadership.

    JCL stated:
    “What if Christians had never questioned the Church’s previous certainty that … women couldn’t be ministers?

    Speaking of that, our denomination has chosen not to take literally the verses in the Bible that forbid women from taking leadership roles and even from talking in church, right? So why are we holding so tight to a literal interpretation of a few verses on homosexuality? ”

    There is a precedence for embracing Christian gays.

    There are two things that have helped me immensely in my journey of developing my perspective of this issue:
    1. Knowing someone who is gay and is a Christian and talking openly with them. (Thank you for your willingness to help me see, LF.)
    2. My father recommended a book: Stranger at the Gate by Mel White.

    It makes such a difference in perspective when you know and care about someone personally who is gay. Thank you, Todd, for sharing your journey. Thank you for letting people know you – it does change perspectives!!!

    Amy, great article! You did an awesome job.

  52. So tired of clobber passages on said:

    Alan says: nor does Jesus speak on behalf of homosexual unions

    Interestingly, neither does Jesus ever condemn or even mention homosexuality, ever. If this were so very serious a subject to him it stands to reason that he would have addressed it. He does not.

    The fear and prejudice that hide behind claims that the Bible condemns homosexuality do not validate the viewpoint, nor do they erase the views of those who understand the context, interpretation, and rhetoric that have gone into modern translations of ancient text for which the word homosexual did not even yet exist.

  53. Ron Zimmer on said:

    The term “sexual immorality” is a rabbinical term. It is a catch all phrase used by all first century rabbis to speak of all the teachings about sex and sexuality in the Laws of Moses. Jesus uses the term three times in Matthew and once in Mark. It is true to say that the Gospels do not record a specific teaching where Jesus singled out homosexuality, but not that Jesus left it unaddressed.

  54. Melissa Thun on said:

    I am a PLNU alum and member of San Diego First Church of the Nazarene. I am blessed to have a Pastor who is not afraid of open discussion. I am further blessed to have other church members stand beside me and open our arms to the LGBT community.

    However, I am utterly offended by the ignorant and hurtful comments of a fellow church member – Amy C. Just because you have a family member who is gay, doesn’t give you any special insight into their innermost workings. It doesn’t give you a magic power to understand their genetic make-up, sexuality, or spirituality even though you evidently think it does. My father was gay and I’m proud to call myself sister to a gay “brother from another mother,” but that doesn’t give me any right to decide whether they were born gay or “chose” to be gay. What it has given me is the first-hand witnessing of the hate and contempt barely cloaked in pious concern that’s been foisted upon them by so-called christians.

    If homosexuality is a sin and you are so eager to point it out, pray it out, and keep it out – what about some other sins? What about adultery? What about premarital sex? What about coveting? What about stealing? What about . . .?

    If we held firm to the standard being set out for the LGBT’s with even just one of those ‘what ifs’ I just mentioned, we would scarcely have any church members at all! In fact, we would have a lot less Nazarene ministers!

    And about Ron Raphoon’s statement “. . . while I was never an angel by any means and probably frequently bent the rules a bit, it was typically away from the school and kept separate from the university.” Do you not understand what you just said? Here’s how that came across to me – So, as long as students or faculty members smoke pot, have sex, get drunk, or whatever “bending” of the rules happens is done off campus, it’s ok. Really???

    Todd and the rest of you nameless LGBT PLNU students – I support you, love you, and welcome you into the body of Christ.

    Melissa

  55. happy_one on said:

    I am proud of the steps PLNU has taken towards openness in the past decade. Keep it up.

  56. Jesus Follower on said:

    Jesus would hang out with Todd, because Jesus loves him.

  57. Rodger on said:

    Todd should step down from his current position, but not because of his sexual orientation. He has made two huge life altering decisions. The first being ending an engagement and the second being his sexual orientation. These decisions are not made lightly. It takes an emotional toll on a person. I believe he should step down to dedicate more time to these decisions and to have a period of reflection. I agree that PLNU and the Christian community at large needs to discuss the issue of sexual orientation and I support Todd in making this move. I do believe, however, it would be more appropriate if he conducted this move outside of his current role in spiritual life. The position of ASB direction of Spiritual life requires a lot of time and dedication. If Todd would like to head up a LGBT movement at PLNU, great, then he should step down from his current position to dedicate his full attention to heading up this new movement. You cannot be CFO and CEO of a company and expect to do each job to your highest ability.
    It frustrates me to my core when Christians obsess about the issue of sexual orientation. He is gay, so what! That is between him and God. He is not breaking any laws; he is not hurting anybody physically or emotionally. Is this really where we should be sending our time and resources as Christians? Arguing about a person’s sexuality? If this is all you have to offer the world then you are no better than it and you are certainly not bettering it. It frustrates me that despite the fact a huge tsunami has devastated Japan, PLNU won’t be known as the University that stepped up with an out poring of love and support. Nope, people will look back at all these comments and wonder why us Christians were arguing instead about a person’s sexual orientation. When you get to heaven, God isn’t going to look back that this point in time and say “, good job, you really argued your points well against homosexuality!” He will most likely look back and ask, “how did you love your bother and sisters in Christ in Japan?” or, “wouldn’t it have been a better use of your time to be arguing about how best PLNU can reach out to those devastated and feeling without Christ in Japan?.” If you want to argue about sexuality, would it not be a better use of time to protest the strip club right in our own backyard instead? Or to offer resources to women struggling in the community so they do not have to turn to that line of work to earn a living?

    Sincerely,

    A Dissapointed Christian

  58. Brett Michael Carmouche on said:

    1) Please check out the link attached here, this issue is at Olivet as well.Here’s the link:
    http://glimmerglass2.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/gay-what-would-jesus-do/

    2) The post that follows is a response to the article recently ran here, I share it in support of Todd and the rest of the LGBT community at PLNU. When you see Olivet, feel free to replace it with PLNU.

    Friends,

    First, I wish to thank all of you for your comments thus far. It has been so encouraging to see an actual conversation occurring on this campus, and beyond it as well. Your phone calls, letters, messages, and friendship is so very much appreciated. Though not explicitly granted this power, I wish to, on behalf of the LGBT community at Olivet and the nation over, offer up a sincere and heartfelt thank you.

    Secondly, I wish to point out that while I strongly stand against many of the actions taken up by the university, I remain grateful to those people; administration, faculty, staff, and students alike who have and continue to support me and others like me–regardless of our orientation. I appreciate you and love all the same. I do not take our relationship(s) for granted.

    Finally, let me say this. True change does not come as the result of an article, protests, or in some cases, even martyrdom, but rather, a steadfast commitment, both in heart and mind to bring justice to the forefront. When an unjust law or policy exists, it must be broken so that justice might prevail. Such has been the inevitable trend of history, so too is the trend today.

    We must not succumb to hatred, but rather love. We must be willing to listen before we speak. We must embrace those who may not desire an embrace with us. We must respect everyone, so that we too might be respected, and we must, even in our darkest hours, remember that we have the power, and it is a real power–to change not just unjust policies or laws, but the world.

    My friends, Olivet Nazarene University is not at fault, but rather, the policies accepted, implemented, and acted upon by some. But make no mistake, even those in charge answer to a higher power, and unfortunately, it’s not God in this case, but rather, those flipping the bill. So the true question is, which one is more important: the well being and fitness of our students OR our donor relations?

    From Olivet to Point Loma, from Harding to Westmont, and from Rutgers to Harvard, and to the deep dark closets in which we all find ourselves at times, LGBT students have risen and we will continue to do so. We will be respected! We will stand up for what is right and against that which is wrong. Our voices shall not go unheard! We will do so peacefully and honestly. We will not desist!

    Such is the call to which we all must answer, gay and straight alike.

    My friends, spread the word. Rise up, where ever you are. Be PROUD of who you are, and no matter what, KNOW THAT GOD LOVES YOU!

    You are NOT an abomination.

    You are NOT disgusting before the eyes of the Lord.

    You ARE a CHILD OF GOD.

    You ARE loved.

    You ARE beautiful.

    And you are NOT alone.

    Do not give up!

    Do not fear their warnings or their lies! Wrap yourself in the banner of truth and march onward in the reality of knowing that “if there is no struggle, there is no progress”.

    May the peace & love of our God be with you all,

    BMC

  59. Rachel Peterson-Lawrence on said:

    As a PLNU alum. (2004), I am very disappointed in the adverse and hateful reaction that I feel has been infectiously inflicted upon the gay community. I am astonished at the lack of education and frankly human decency on this subject.

    No, I do not think that PLNU has been having a “healthy” discussion about this subject. I feel that they have done the opposite (aside from a few including Todd). From what I have read, it seems as though many from PLNU and those who have posted comments against being gay, have instead brought about prejudice yet justify this harmful behavior with what they have manipulated as the “word” of God. I think that sometimes, we as christians preach love, going to great lengths to show it to many, including murderers & rapists (prison ministries), but don’t even show the slightest inclination to offer this same love and acceptance to those who are gay. I am tired of people throwing out biblical passages as if God’s Word condones us to treat others this way. We do not know what God’s “judgement” will be, nor should we as “christians” presume to know.

    Yes, people are angry and they are expressing it. they have the right. everyone has responded with anger at one time or another. that is what we as humans do when we have been hurt and attacked. it is called fight or flight.

    I thought that it was our responsibility as christians to try and bring heaven to earth, not the opposite.

    Todd, you are a brave man of God and I know that He has put you on this earth for a reason. You have a purpose and I see the light of God in you and your actions. I see love. I see acceptance. I see Jesus.

    Rachel Peterson-Lawrence

  60. Vernon Corzine on said:

    I am glad to read that PLNU has taken steps in a loving way to bring truth out of one issue that Satan seems to be using by such organizations as “Concerned Nazarenes”. I especially commend Rev. Steve Scotts comment, “We haven’t said we’re here to validate everyone’s perspectives on life,” he said. “We’re here to validate Christ’s perspectives on life.” I am a bit disconcerted about Dee Kelley’s stance. I would expect more from him. Without trying to be too ‘judgemental’ the COTN was not formed for ‘gays’ to find a platform for their agenda. If they want a platform, let them form their own church and quit trying to destroy the COTN. Also let’s put the terms in the right perspective, the term is ‘homo-sexual’ not ‘gay.’ If you are going to use cliches, I mention that when I was growing up, there were other terms used that were not as flattering as ‘gay’. I don’t think we want to use them again. You don’t have to be a Greek (or Hebrew scholar) to know that God abhors the homo-sexual lifestyle (not the homo-sexual). Sin is sin, no matter the rationalization.
    vc

  61. Allen Marsh on said:

    To be homosexual or to have homosexual tendencies is usually a result of environmental situations, but even if not that is very different from homosexual behavior. I have had stong heterosexual attractions and have had to resist them. A homosexual can resist temptation just as a heterosexual can. Jesus will not coerce a person into righteous behavior–or away from sinful behavior. He will give us the strength to do what is right if we want. The basic concept is that sexual behavior, whatever kind, apart from marriage is sin. The Bible is clear that those who practice sin cannot enter heaven. (e.g.1 Cor 6:9-11)

  62. Jim Manker on said:

    Playing fair…
    That’s what I want for all of us (if I could speak for all of us in this moment)… to just simply play fair.
    Fair …to suggest the church has MOSTLY missed it in welcoming a person(s) who are gay.
    Fair …to agree that the Bible isn’t as awesome as some of us think when it comes to this issue.
    Fair …to believe that all sin, sexual, or not, is damaging to my relationship with God, to my community and to my very own soul. And while the ripple effect seems to be greater with some sin (adultery, murder), and less with others (gossip, gluttony), in God’s eyes they are probably the same (I don’t know this for a fact because I’m not God, and aren’t you glad, but that’s what I think anyway).
    Fair …to believe that I can be your friend and not agree with the way you live your life. And not be called a homophobe, or a flaming liberal, a fundy, or a universalist…I’m not a hater, I’m just trying to be your friend and sometimes I suck at that, and so do you. But can we just admit it once in awhile?
    Fair …to understand that homosexuality is VERY complex, begins (not in every case) early, early on in life, and has all kinds of convergence: theologically, psychologically, sociologically, culturally, communally, and anthropologically, and we probably ought to spend a little more time talking more about it…together…
    Fair …to say I probably don’t know what it’s like to be you, PLNU, Dr. Brower, Todd, or Mary Paul, or anyone else named or unnamed in this story. And you probably don’t know what it’s like to be me. And that if I ever find myself in the majority, the onus of hospitality falls MOSTLY on my plate, but doesn’t dismiss you from that role either.
    Fair ….to say that PLNU doesn’t have to have a Gay and Lesbian club to be welcoming and hospitable to the gay community, gay students, or gay alumni and that’s okay.
    Fair …to suggest that simple human anatomy (seems to me), to present a compelling creative design story and while that story doesn’t trump any other story, it ought to at least be a part of the conversation.
    Fair …to agree on a communal ethic that suggests some of my freedoms may not be yours and therefore I won’t force them on you, and hopefully you won’t force them on me, and that we will approach our freedoms with a certain sense of humility and grace.
    Fair …to commit to walking with another who is on the opposite side of this issue, for some time, before speaking out for or against. Let’s be honest, most of us are NOT experts on either side, and my personal experience is just that, MY personal experience.

    Fair …to know that this is just one man’s incomplete thoughts, hopeful that my friends on either side, can meet me in the middle and continue to talk about it.

  63. PLNU Alum on said:

    “So Tired…”

    Jesus never mentions pedophelia. Does it stand to reason that he would not, then, have considered that a serious topic?

    Would you label scriptural passages that condemn murder as “clobber passages” unfairly directed at murderers? Would you say that scriptures admonishing us to love one another are “clobber passages” against those who choose not to love?

    How do you explain the fact that for over 2,000 years, Christians have held a very consistent view on the issue of homosexuality – that homosexual acts are sin. Do you believe that all of those Christians, including those who were close to people who personally knew Christ were mistaken on this issue and that only recently, certain people have finally been enlightened to the truth on this topic?

  64. Syracuse DUI/DWI Lawyers on said:

    That is the proper weblog for anybody who wants to find out about this topic. You understand so much
    its almost exhausting to argue with you (not that I really would need…HaHa). You positively put a new
    spin on a subject thats been written about for years. Great stuff, just nice!

  65. Darren on said:

    I am so tired of the term “conversation”.

    I am tired of the Church of the Nazarene doctrines being eroded away.

    I am tired of people having conversations instead of telling a lost and dieing world that they are going to spend eternity separated from God.

    God’s word never changes. Homosexuality and for that matter any sexual perversion , IS A SIN. No amount of conversation is going to change that. Homosexuality is a perversion of God’s gift of sex. What’s next? Heterosexuals finding reasons to have affairs and then having a conversation about how we need to be more understanding? That’s ridiculous you may say? What is ridiculous is watching the Nazarene church turn from it’s beliefs to be relevant. God help the Church of the Nazarene.

  66. J.R. Bjerke on said:

    Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight!
    - Isaiah 5:20-21

  67. Liz Reeves on said:

    As a (queer) former PLNU student, it is encouraging to see an honest discussion about homosexuality in the Church.

    Great article!

  68. Philip Lindquist on said:

    I am a graduate of Southern Nazarene University, who lives in Dallas and is active in my local Nazarene church. I read Amy’s well written article with an ache in my heart for all involved. Some of those named in the article are my friends. I don’t know the answers to the many very difficult questions that this situation has raised. But I am sure that we in the church have all too often imported our culture’s harsh attitudes towards homosexuality into the church without examining those issues at the foot of the cross. May God forgive us. I will know that we in the church will be getting closer to the mind of Christ in these matters when we treat those engaged in homosexual conduct that we believe to be sinful the same way we treat those engaged in heterosexual conduct that we believe to be sinful. It’s clear that we are still far from there.

  69. Philip Lindquist on said:

    In thinking about this further, I recall a lot of the attitudes and absolute certainty in what the Bible says were applied with respect to divorce and remarriage as I was growing up (one of the truly dreadful things a early 20′s friend (now a Nazarene pastor’s wife) said to me was “thank God my husband cheated on me so I could get a divorce because our marriage was so bad”). We have worked our way through that issue pretty well, and I hope we will ultimately work our way through the issue of homosexuality. I think our biggest obstacle is that we could identify with those who were divorced because they were our family and friends but gays and lesbians are largely “others” and that will make it more difficult for us to deal with, particularly in churches that are serious about the transforming work of God in our lives. May God have mercy on us. And thank God for people like Dr. Dee Kelly who are willing to create places for us to search for the mind of Christ on these questions.

  70. Ronald Goetz on said:

    Philip, just to clarify: Todd Clayton is not sexually active. He has not sinned.

    Apparently, for some, it actually is a perversion just to feel same-sex attractions. You don’t even have to act on them.

    How many students, faculty, staff, and administrators at PLNU would be tolerated if their internal sexual transgressions were the measure?

    You’d have an empty campus.

  71. I continue to chuckle at the turbulence created when the “sinners” discuss homosexuality and church. Is the church so insecure that it cannot enter into discussions?
    Are the leaders of the churches so blind they cannot see their churches dying because of their ignorance?
    Have not everyone in church committed a sin at one point or another. Amongst many others, it is a sin to waste seed as well as covet and to commit adultery and let’s not forget gluttony!
    Open thy hearts and love thy neighbour.
    I will dwell in the house of the lord forever – regardless of my orientation or what I think of yours.

  72. MIKEL D FRANCIS on said:

    wow…this hits home..when i was a soph at mid america nazarene in 89 i was asked to LEAVE for admitting being gay..one choice that i was givin was counceling to change to be st8..i said NO..they said then you must leave because the church believes that this is a sin..it just makes me sad..people dont know nor understand what we go through..when you LOVE JESUS so much but told you are a sinner..its soo hard..no one is perfect nor will they ever be!..praise JESUS for SPIRIT OF HOPE METROPOLITAN COMMUNITY CHURCH..praise JESUS for all the MCCs out there they preach a healthy GAY CHRISTIAN walk!!!.the MCCs is such a wonderful place that my MOM has LEFT her NAZARENE CHURCH and now ATTENDS MCC WITH ME!!! just REMEMBER we are WHOSOEVERS..JOHN 3:16..PEACE

  73. Steve McHargue on said:

    Why do we want to dabble in moral relativism? Is the emergent church babble now infecting the very fabric of our Christian education centers? Just because our culture believes something to be right or correct does not mean that it is. Christ called a spade a spade. His teaching about sin is clear. Did he not tell the prostitute to sin no more? How about the money changers in the temple? Bible doesn’t provide specific details explaining that one, however …still wrong! Clayton is obviously struggling with his sexuality. God still loves him and His grace is abundantly available. But homosexuality remains wrong. No matter how much we may or may not want gravity to operate consistently, as it does, it still operates consistently. Talk and talk and talk about gravity, but it still remains gravity. Last week I was subjected to a USAF official training program that stated “sodomy between two consenting adults is not grounds for discharge from the Department of Defense or the United States Air Force.” REALLY! Still wrong even if the President directs it not to be wrong. We should have frank biblical discussions about sexuality on our Nazarenes University campuses. Let start with Genesis 2:24-25, Genesis 19 (the whole thing), Leviticus 18: 22, Romans 1:24-27. These verses seem pretty clear folks…unless you aren’t sure of the wholeness and inerrancy of the Bible. That being said… homosexuality remains a sin, a known transgression of Gods laws. Men do not leave their parents to be united with men. PLNU leadership… you need to speak very directly and very biblically here.

  74. Jane Doe on said:

    I voted with my feet several years ago, walking away from the Nazarene church, and never looked back. Any gay man with any self respect would do likewise.

    Posted by Paul Johnson | March 22, 2011, 4:19 am

    In response to Paul Johnson:

    “Any self-respecting man would not be gay” Does God love you. Yes. Does God want men or women to be gay? No.

    Genesis 2:7,18

    ..”the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being…. The LORD God said, It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him. But for Adam[h] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[i] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib[j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said,This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;she shall be called ‘woman,’
    for she was taken out of man.”
    For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.”

    Please tell me where in this does it say that God made man for man?

    Where in this passage is God pleased with a man being with a man or a woman with a woman?

  75. MATT LUSK on said:

    I’ve enjoyed reading the comments on this page. I did not attend PLNU, I went to a different, strict evangelical Wesleyan-holiness university, where we had an similar dialogue.
    I didn’t have an answer then, and I don’t have one now. Everyone chooses a side to a differing degree, but rarely do hear people say let’s follow Jesus’ example. Which many times does not necessarily mirror the churches response.
    The woman at the well, Jesus already knew her, He had created her, but He did not agree with her lifestyle. This however did not make her unlovable. Nor did He condemn her, but told her to turn from her way of immorality, I’ve always felt this was because he above all others knew that this is not what He meant for her life when He knit her together.
    I personally do not agree with homosexuality, and will not exalt that which the LORD will not, but I have enough planks in my own eye as not to throw stones.
    I will always follow Jesus’ example and show his love to whomever He puts in front of me. No matter their orientation. Let the example of Christ be our guide. And the inerrant scriptures be our foundation.

  76. I am a gay man with a story very similar to Todd’s story.

    Everyone’s opinions posted here are very interesting. I would speculate that no one here has considered these questions and issues more than Todd. In general, they’re hurtful if not really harmful.

    Although many people grasp for answers and explanations in the Bible (theology, doctrine, etc.), my experience was that they were all totally inadequate. Many times a simple contradiction of reality: I felt that the Bible and Christian teachings were being forced to explain something they just couldn’t. Unfortunately, everything falls into serious question.

    Feelings, emotions, a sense of being, a sense of love, a sense of pleasure–we all want to experience those things. When it’s your own life that feels out of sync with the Biblical picture, it makes you question the whole deal. And when you hear people try to teach you “you’re wrong,” it all just looks a little funny.

  77. megan on said:

    I believe practicing homosexuality is a sin. I also believe that pride, selfishness, greed, anger, etc, are sins.
    So, should only the non-sinners be in leadership?

  78. Linda Drake on said:

    Having just recently finished my own personal study on God’s perspective on homosexuality, I am pleased to hear that there is at least some discussion going on. I was treated badly just becasue I published my study on facebook and I am not even gay. God had been speaking to me for a long time on the subject. I read 8 books, I think, all by Biblical scholars of the day. There is a lot of information and I was having a difficult time making heads or tails of it all. Then one day, I just knew that the idea of two people of the same sex having a relationship comparable to a heterosexual marriage was never discussed in the Bible. I believe We have misinterpreted scripture because we have not taken the time to study it carefully. There are arguments on both sides that sound good. However, one thing kept nagging me. I believe if a person bears the gifts of the Holy Spirit and their life is an example of Christian beliefs, then I am not going to condemn them for being gay. I believe God can honor such a relationship just as he does a heterosexual marriage. I greatly admire this young man for his honesty. We definitely need more discussion on the subject. If you care to read my study, friend me on facebook. Linda Stalter Drake

  79. Tonya Berry on said:

    To simplify a very complex argument, people just want to do what they want to do, and they want to find any excuse they can, to force God to say it’s ok. They’ll find out some day. Unfortunately that day might be sooner than they think. I do love them as I love all my fellow sinners, but just because we ARE sinners doesn’t mean we have to go on sinning. Romans 6

  80. Ivan Pollock on said:

    I thought the Bible taught that we should repent {from our sin} then be saved?

  81. Over the last couple of years I have had a two men that were having marital affairs with other women say to me, “Its OK what I am doing and I believe God has brought us together”. My response was really? You are hearing a voice all right but it’s not God’s. I said you have been deceived by the best deceiver in the world.

    See in their minds they were justified, thinking God was pleased with them especially since they were Christians. Eve was justified in her mind, but later said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” Life turned out well for Eve with that choice.

    Well when the smoke cleared with those two men, they lost their marriages and messed up their families. And do you know what they told me later…boy was I deceived.

    Bottom line…Jesus was into come as you are, but don’t stay as you are teaching. Every one of us can justify sin in our little minds. As scripture says…All of us will have to stand before Him and give account of our life. God’s not going to give a rip what people think or justify in their minds.

  82. James on said:

    Lane hit the nail right on the head. God does not care what we think. He has set a standard for our lives that must be followed. So that none thinks that I advocate salvation by works, let me say, salvation is by grace through faith. After justification comes sanctification, which is a life changed by living for Christ and following Him in obedience. Any sex outside of the marriage relationship is wrong, be it porn, adultery or homosexual.

    Having said that homosexuality violates God’s command to be fruitful and multiply.. it is unnatural, the plumbing just doesn’t fit. God’s word is clear about this subject, abundantly clear. This shouldn’t even be an issue on christian college campuses. When you enroll in classes you sign an agreement and it should be upheld. It is a shame that a college puts money ahead of righteousness.. we live in sad times. Before you judge I have struggled with this in my own life and decided that by God’s grace I could put this off, saying one can’t really means won’t and still doesn’t make it right.

  83. Nazarene Pastor's Kid on said:

    CAITLYN BURFORD suggested that we church-goers should think for a quick-minute about the TEXT we consider to be holy.

    Why are some passages elevated and others forgotten?
    Why is the book riddled with surface-level discrepancies and deep theological uncertainty?

    Why have SO MANY PREACHERS stopped preaching morality from the lines in Leviticus?

    I pity the person with a rational solution to any of these problems. Because doing so really destroys the need for an existential faith in Jesus/God/Father. You know, The DUDE.

    Generations of people have determined that it is inappropriate to accept certain female-oppressive passages in the Bible. This is a good thing, a natural thing. We’ve not warped God’s love. God’s love has warped our dogma.

    This is a GOOD thing. Mostly because I love my mother (and polyester-cotton blend socks), but also because it allows the Love of God to continue throughout generations.

    You’re a fool if you think the way you worship now would have been accepted in the time the Bible was written.

    You’re a fool if you think the way you worship now is how Jesus worshiped then.

    You’re a fool if you think that your view of morality is the same as the Apostle Paul’s or Jesus.’ If you’re a Nazarene, you’re a fool to thing that Greeks didn’t drink wine or dance at weddings;)

    But I don’t mind being a fool because I know that the grace of God is freely given. I love that, don’t you?

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